aftermarket TCI compatibility.

[johnD]

Hi fossie.
According to Bill, the previous owner, posts passim, it has never run 'properly'. Various others have looked it over, but none have solved it. It can be persuaded to start, after a fashion, but only with a lot of help from a hot air gun and some easy start. When running, it will rev, but not below 3000 rpm, all the time smokey as all hell. After a minute or two it just dies with sooted plugs. I was initially thrown by the good spark it produces, but, a good spark is useless if it occurs at the wrong time. When things work properly, these should start easily, not have to churn it so much that a starter motor fails.
As I say, I get all the nasty ones, this is proving to be a hum dinger!

[Uncle Bob]

Like Fossie said I still think you are going down the Bandit 400 route for the part numbers and info and that is quite possibly wrong.
From what you said the bike came with the igniter unit part number 32900-10D60 which is for the Bandit 400.
I would really look at using a proper Katana 400 igniter and see if that works first. The notes you have about later versions etc relate to the Bandit. The Katana part numbers for the igniter are only 32900-46D00 (my 92 had this on) and the 32900-46D01 which was a slight revision( smallkat's dead one had this).

I have 2 original igniters that worked (though they were a little tired and starting took a while but once started worked fine). I can send one if you want to try it, just give it time to turn over. Let me know. I still can't get into SmallKat's dead one without mullering the casing - I think it might come to that - it's possibly glued in and it is dead anyway...

UB

[Smallkat]

So getting back to the beginning , has this 400 ever started in your tenure ship John , you say it came with this CDi from a Bandit .....my best guess is that this is the issue ..a previous owner ..'cos there's no saying the last one was successful ( 400/250 have multiple owners in short times !)

Bill (previous owner) didn't want to try a new igniter. For some reason he was dead set against the idea when I talked to him. even though it was my best suggestion for him.

Rob - just break into my igniter. Repairing the case will be the least of our worries if you can repair the insides.

[johnD]

Thanks for the replies and offers, really. Not many people will go to these lengths.
Just had a long conversation with Bill, and yes, he was trying to start with this igniter, NOT a Suzuki type, but an aftermarket device just labelled CDI-11. This I began to strongly suspect.
I have an electronics background so decided to take a look inside. Its layout is fairly simple, volts in via a voltage regulator to feed stable 5v to the CPU, a pulse input with shaping and amplification, CPU output to the switching transistors. Feeding it with a squarewave signal from my sig generator, all signal paths seem to be good. Then I checked on the CPU clock pulse, oops, looks very much as though the crystal is dead, not a peep from it. No clock pulse means the CPU has no reference point to time its actions.
I have a generic EBay igniter ordered, but would be far happier with a genuine one, if any are still alive!
My concern is that these generics claim to cover Bandits, GSXR's and any other number of 400's, when, patently, there are variations between models and even years..... They also come in different flavours of connector pin outs, that I am not too bothered by, but does show that descriptions cannot be fully trusted.

Given the flakyness of original equipment igniters and my doubts about aftermarket replacements, I have hatched a fallback plan ( a cunning one, Mr. Blackadder). I have also ordered a Bandit 600 timing rotor. If this fits, or can be made to fit in place of the 400's trigger rotor, that opens up the marketplace considerably. That is a work in progress...

As mentioned, I also await delivery of the spare side casing, once I can get a strobe light in there I can actually see whats going on. But, I am very open to offers of a loan or sale of a genuine 10D00 igniter. Trouble is, Suzuki put some of them in potting compound, makes it impossible to repair. If the casing does not remove easily, then it is sealed so basically scrap.
(Takes deep breath)
Cheers!

[Tonykat]

Hi, this picture is one I have put in my 400 and it runs with it, not been able to give full test as bike is still having other jobs done and not on the road yet.
Other picture of old unit, had to break case to get in.
Tony

[johnD]

Thanks tonycat, gives me something to look for, hang the expense, just have to freeze for a few days.

So, where are we? Bandit side casing arrived today, hacked out a viewing window, bolts up nicely and allows me to see the timing marks. The arrow on the timing rotor faces a notch in the front casing with No. 1 cylinder at TDC, these I highlighted in white Tipex. Rigged up the strobe, turned it over on the starter...... Timing marks a mile out, not even in the window! I marked various area of the rotor until I finally got one to line up with the crankcase mark under the strobe. This thing is firing some 30 degrees or more Advanced!!!! So either this rotor is telling the TCI porky pies, or the TCI has had some kind of mid life crisis...
What I did notice is that the igniter fires on one of the narrower 'tangs' of the rotor. There are also three studs(?) pins(?) that seem to secure the rotor to the starter clutch casing. The distance between the point the TCI fires and the arrow timing mark and the distance between these pins is exactly the same. Once tea and toast have been consumed I'll be having a closer look at that assembly....

[fossie]

I realise that is now a battle of wits , but I'm struggling myself to assertain what the Bandit bit has to do with it ...other than in theory if the boxes are advertised as generic it should work

Personally I wouldn't take a vendors listings of multiple items as gospel.

I think the engine number prefix is the answer to the problem , I have forgotten the actual 400ssn prefix , but just adding a Bandit rotor and realigning the timings marks seems a lot more hassle than getting a black box for a 400 Kat especially seeing as the last keeper gave up with a Bandit box.

But hey people better than I love a challenge

[Uncle Bob]

Other picture of old unit, had to break case to get in.

Handy to know you had to break the case - I was coming to that conclusion myself with SmallKats one, but struggling not to. Keep the old one, it should just be a case of replacing the 5 electrolytic capacitors - just need the values off the side (voltage and microfarad ( µF ) rating). They dry out with age hence why it probably goes wrong. Should be fairly easy once you get into it! As the caps are cheapish I might buy a few sets so (if it does work) can replace others if they send this way.
Possibly the transisitors can be replaced as well - I saw another post saying something like this should do...
https://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/tip150 ... dp/1440104

Thanks

UB

[johnD]

Hi fossie. I'm not sure what Bandit bits you refer to. The side casing fits just the same as the Kats, pick up coil etc. This was sacrificial in that I had to carve out a window to see the timing marks whilst using the starter motor to turn it over.
If you are refering to the Bandit electronics and trigger rotor, they are the same items, same TCI, same trigger rotor. The only differences 'seem' to come with the VVT Bandit engine. That definitely uses the 10D60 TCI, this must be to accomodate the TPS according to the wiring diagram I have for that model.
Whatever is happening to my igniter box, or rotor, its no wonder this thing has never run.
BTW I found that running the soldering iron over the joints in the clock crystal area resumeed normal service, so these Chinese replacements might need some TLC if causing problems.

I am now left in a quandry. Is it rotor or is it TCI? So, does anyone live in the northwest, around the Lancashire or Yorkshire area? I could do with trying this box on a known working bike, just to prove or not that its at fault.
Next.... How the hell do you remove the starter clutch unit? Gis a clue!
Cheers

[fossie]

Small Kat will along soon I'm sure , he's oop 'ere.
Generally the Chinese boxes haven't given problems that we know of , but no one wishes to endorse anything electrical from PRC, because generally the given time that say a kettle , light fitting , hairdryer lasts before failing is poor , so is its reputation .
That added to the fact that the OEM boxes have lasted until the last ten years or so when they are all causing issues these replacement Chinese ones are relatively new !