Carb settings etc.

The 1990's Japanese market GSX250SSN (GJ76A) and GSX400SSN (GK77A)
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fossie
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Re: Carb settings etc.

Post by fossie » Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:11 pm

As I mentioned , for me it's very simply choke side of the carbs , it doesn't need all of them to be an issue . Bare with me here ...650 GX Kats have this stupid choke cable that runs through the headstock , pull it up its on on push it down it's off ..but after a while the cable moves up and down the plunger moves in and out ...but number 2 sticks on a touch , but seems to be fully home ...the result is your symptoms ...

Disconnect the cable ..and the actual choke mechanism to see if it makes a difference .
While you are at it the little brass pipe along the side of number 4 carb is it intact , has it been araldited or repaired ...if it's blocked by 'repair ' material Guess what the symptoms are? :lol:
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Re: Carb settings etc.

Post by johnD » Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:43 pm

Thanks Fossie and Smallcat, some things to investigate.
I won't be able to get to it for a few days, I have a GSXR1400, a Kawasaki VN700 and a Triumph Rocket three to sort. Its a case of physician heal thyself with this one, can't fail on my own bike..... How would that look!
Does seem to have its share of problems though, as I always say, I never get the easy ones.....

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Re: Carb settings etc.

Post by Smallkat » Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:37 am

When you get round to selling it, let me know...... :D
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Re: Carb settings etc.

Post by johnD » Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:13 pm

Well all, just like Boris...... I'm back!
Had a chance to get stuck in today. Had to visit a local bike shop to pick up a job, bought some, extortainatly expensive new plugs, just to eliminate.
Carbs back in, started her up, grumbled into life with a lot of help from the hot air gun.
Ran for about five minutes, obviously not happy at low revs, so no change there.
Checked plugs, black as....
Carbs off again.

So, no argument that its running filthy rich off the pilot circuit. Chokes checked, shutting off fully.
Now, here comes the interesting bit.
The float bowl has a circular stepped casting that fits into a recess in the carb body.
Within this recess is the drilling for the pilot fuel gallery, controlled by the pilot screw under the carb at the front. That is easy to trace.
But! within this recess are three holes in a triangular aray. These holes go straight through to the inlet tract, just behind the butterfly.
On inspection, the inlet is very wet and stained in this area.
Its not the pilot inlet, that is a small hole towards the front on the tract.
So, what function do these three holes perform? They are unregulated, i.e. they go straight from the pilot gallery into the carb manifold. Mine is running filthy rich and gargling fuel like a local at Witherspoons. Methinks it has something to do with this.
three holes.jpg
inlet manifold.jpg
float bowl plug.jpg

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Re: Carb settings etc.

Post by johnD » Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:07 am

The plot deepens. Just found a very clear explanation of the CV carb operation. One section deals with the pilot circuit and its operation, as below.

PILOT CIRCUIT

This is sometimes called the "idle circuit" but it does a lot more than control idle. And it is perhaps the most misunderstood of the three circuits. The role of the pilot circuit is basically to run the engine when the throttle is closed, as when the engine is idling or the throttle is closed on deceleration. But this circuit is also the main source of fuel at very small throttle openings. As the throttle is opened past 1/4, the importance of this circuit diminishes, as the main fuel supply is now provided through the main "fuel hole" and controlled by the needle/needle jet and ultimately the main jet. But the pilot circuit does remain active and makes a (progressively smaller) contribution all the way to WOT.

The typical set up is this: The pilot circuit get its fuel from the float bowl through the pilot jet. The circuit also has a pilot air jet, but the purpose here is not to provide all the needed air (as in the starting circuit), but to provide air to premix with and partially aerate the fuel before the mixture enters bore and completes the atomization process with air travelling through the bore. Such little air passages are sometimes called "air bleed" circuits.

This circuit typically has two outlets. One is called the "pilot outlet" and is located on the engine side of the butterfly valve. This outlet supplies the fuel mixture to support idling and deceleration (that is, off-throttle running). It has an adjustment screw which controls the amount of fuel mixture entering the bore under off-throttle conditions. This screw is sometimes mistaken for an "air screw" but it is not. Turning in (right) reduces the amount of fuel mixture, and turning out (left) increases it. In for lean, out for rich.

The other outlet is call the "bypass outlet" and is located right at the point in the bore where the bottom of the butterfly comes to rest when closed. Typically, the butterfly is set a tad open to permit just a slight amount of air to pass by at the bottom to support idle and deceleration, and most of the fuel for these functions is supplied through the pilot outlet. But as the butterfly is opened, more air flows past it, and the venturi effect starts to work on the bypass Additional fuel is now drawn out of the bypass to support low speed running and cruising at small throttle openings. (Note that if the butterfly valve is adjusted to 'fully closed' the engine will probably not start or idle. It needs to be open a tad. As mentioned above, these outlets continue "giving" throughout the rev range, but their contribution to the overall mixture diminishes as the slide rises.)

An addition to this circuit is found on later Hitachi and all Mikuni carbs. This is the "coasting enricher". A typical problem in earlier carbs was the fact that when you chopped the throttle (closed the butterfly) on deceleration, there would not enough fuel in the mixture at the (at that moment) high revs to allow the engine to fire consistently. You would then get a "lean misfire". That is, the engine would fail to fire, and the unburned mixture (lean though it was) would enter the exhaust header. Then when the engine next fired, you'd get a backfire. (So backfiring on deceleration is typically a lean condition, and not "loading up" as some people think.) The solution they came up with was to reduce the amount of air in the "airbleed" circuit by about half, meaning the fuel content hitting the bore from the pilot outlet was much higher than the normal idle fuel mixture you get on closed throttle. Once the revs came down, the full air bleed would be restored for proper idling. The "coaster enricher" is activated by the strong vacuum created in the carburetor holder (intake stub) by high revs when the butterfly is closed on deceleration.

On Hitachis some external piping was added to service these diaphragm driven valves. On Mikunis the needed passages were drilled into the carb bodies.

Ref the last paragraph.

So, the drillings are there intentionally to add fuel under certain curcumstances.
I am now definitely leaning towards incorrect pilot jets.

cv carb airflow.jpg

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Re: Carb settings etc.

Post by fossie » Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:54 am

The jets are very small and soft metal , so if anyone has use a needle to clean them through , it could make them bigger holed.
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Re: Carb settings etc.

Post by johnD » Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:07 pm

Exactly my thoughts, Fossie.

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Re: Carb settings etc.

Post by johnD » Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:02 pm

Well, the height of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
Those carbs are ultra clean, each float set to within a micron of each other, idle screws to the nano metre.
It is NOT the carbs.
So, time to delve into the motor. Heres hoping that its just valve clearances...... Heres hoping.

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Re: Carb settings etc.

Post by Smallkat » Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:41 am

I thought the height of insanity was owning a 400? Or is it owning two 400s?

Good luck John!
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Re: Carb settings etc.

Post by johnD » Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:12 pm

Might be reviewing your offer, Smallkat......
Spent the day getting into the head, lot of stuff crammed into a small space. Anyway, hoping for tight valve clearances but... Everything there spot on. At least I now know that the top end looks prisctine, cams in good order, etc. (a bit rudimentry in that it uses locknuts on rockers, this on a 12000 rpm motor!)
So, ran a compression test. (On my guage) 155 or so over all cylinders. (My Aprillia 1000cc V twin measures 190+ per cylinder for reference).
Given that the carbs are 'right'. Given, now, that clearances are right and the compression is very good. All that is left is the ignition.
I have the (Chinese?) aftermarket CDI-11 unit fitted. It seems to be a known replacement as I have seen other photos on here of this unit.
Its a bare bones igniter, 12v and earth in on the four pin plug. Coil output on two of the six pin connectors, I'm taking it as crank rotaion sensor and interlocks on the other two connections. (it wouldn't work otherwise!)
ALl very simple and normal. No Throttle Position Sensor, no anti theft diode protection. There is a voltage regulator transistor and a microprocessor that will deal with ignition advance and the two output transistors. Lots of little bits inbetween but not subject to any undue stress electrically.
I did a few voltage and resistance measurements. Here I noticed that the spark seemed very aneamic. The plugs were fouled, but not badly. Then I realised that battery voltage was barely 12 .4 volts and dropped nearer 12v when cranking. I am pointing my finger at the battery, at least for this evening. Tomorrow its time to bring out the big guns battery and then we will see.

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